Our Long Walk
A podcast series focusing on South Africa's past, present and future. Hosts Johan Fourie, an economic historian, and Jonathan Schoots, a historical sociologist, interview social science scholars about compelling questions relating to South Africa and the African continent. The conversations translate academic research into actionable policy recommendations for the present day.
Episodes
Why didn't slavery wither away? with historian Warren Whatley
If an enslaved person would pay above market price for their own freedom, why didn't the market produce abolition? How did a European trade good become a continent-wide arms race? Did Africa's underdevelopment and Europe's rise have the same cause? In this episode of Our Long Walk, Johan Fourie and Jonathan Schoots speak with Warren Whatley, a Professor Emeritus of Economics at the University of M
Can A.I. speak Igbo? with computer scientist Chinasa T. Okolo
Imagine you're a Nigerian law student studying for the bar. You open ChatGPT. It can tell you, confidently, the capital of Arizona. It cannot tell you how a Lagos magistrate is likely to rule. About 52 per cent of the open internet is in English. Four or five other languages split most of the rest. Igbo is not on that list. Neither is Yoruba, Swahili, Amharic, or Ewe.So whose questions does the mo
BONUS: Live interview with Tyler Cowen
In this bonus episode of Our Long Walk, host Johan Fourie welcomes Tyler Cowen for a live interview recorded on 13 March at Stellenbosch University, in front of an audience of students and faculty. Tyler Cowen holds the Holbert Harris Chair of Economics at George Mason University, where he chairs and directs the Mercatus Center; he is the author of more than 20 books, co-founder of the blog Margin
When does marriage stop making economic sense? with Alessandra Voena
Why have economists spent so long studying firms and markets while largely ignoring the family? Who really holds power inside a household, and what gives them that power? Is the decline of marriage a sign of social breakdown, or a quiet demand for something better? Can a centuries-old practice like bride price survive massive shifts in the economy that created it?In this episode, Johan Fourie and
Why do we find it so hard to care about the rights of other people? with economist William Easterly
Can the language of "helping" be used to justify conquest? And when development raises incomes but removes agency, has anything actually improved?In this episode of Our Long Walk, Johan Fourie and Jonathan Schoots speak with Bill Easterly, Professor Emeritus of Economics at New York University. Bill has spent much of his career challenging the idea that development is primarily a technic
Are we suffering from a crisis of imagination? with sociologist Xolela Mancgu
What are we missing when we divide history into the binary of ‘tradition’ and ‘modernity’? How is biography different when we imagine a person’s story from within the structures they find themselves in? What is the crisis of imagination facing South African leadership?In this episode, Johan Fourie and Jonathan Schoots speak with sociologist and historian Xolela Mangcu, Interim Director of Africana
Who is more capitalist than Elon? with strategy expert Christopher Eaglin
Why do our strategy theories fail when confronted with the realities of one of Africa’s most essential informal businesses – minibus taxis? Can a drop in interest rates reduce speeding and crashes? How is the government free-riding on the work (and risk) of taxi entrepreneurs?In this episode of the Our Long Walk podcast, Johan Fourie and Jonathan Schoots speak with Christopher Eaglin, assistant pr
What do Africa’s old currencies say about our modern world? with historian Karin Pallaver
What advantages did cowrie shells and beads have over coins in Africa? Is mobile money a revolution, or just the latest chapter in Africa's long history of monetary innovation?In this episode, Johan Fourie and Jonathan Schoots speak to historian Karin Pallaver about the long history of money in Africa. Karin works at the intersection of economic history, anthropology and archaeology, tracing h
What lives inside of 'don't know'? with demographer Jenny Trinitapoli
What can we learn from uncertainty? How can using beans help with measuring uncertainty? And are we really living in unusually uncertain times?In this episode of the Our Long Walk podcast, my co-host Johan Fourie and Jonathan Schoots speak with Jenny Trinitapoli, Professor of Sociology at the University of Chicago. Since 2008 she has led Tsogolo la Thanzi (TLT), a landmark longitudinal study of yo
What returns when talent leaves? with economist Catia Batista
Why does mobile money reduce agricultural investment in rural areas—and what does this reveal about migration as a development tool? Is high-skilled emigration bad for countries, or can brain drain become brain gain?In this episode of the Our Long Walk podcast, Johan Fourie and Jonathan Schoots speak with Cátia Batista, Professor of Economics at Nova School of Business and Economics and founder of
What can Africa teach us about God? with economist Paul Seabright
What is the difference between magic and religion – and why does it matter for economics? In this episode of the Our Long Walk podcast, Johan Fourie and Jonathan Schoots speak with Paul Seabright, Professor of Economics at the Toulouse School of Economics and one of the most original voices on how humans cooperate. For nearly two centuries economists forgot that religious organisations were busine
Africa, who are you? with philosopher Olúfẹ́mi Táíwò
What does a serious defence of modernity look like? In this episode of the Our Long Walk podcast, Johan Fourie and Jonathan Schoots speak with Olúfẹ́mi Táíwò, philosopher of African political thought at Cornell University, about Táíwò argument that modernity is not a cultural label, nor a Western badge to be worn or discarded, but a set of commitments that any society can domesticate and make its
Is imperial history overdue a comeback? with historian Tony Hopkins
In a rapidly changing world marked by trade wars, shifting alliances, and resurgent nationalism, what can history teach us about the future of globalisation? Is America’s retreat from global leadership inevitable, and what might Britain’s past decline reveal about the potential paths ahead?In the first episode of Season 2 of Our Long Walk, Jonathan Schoots and Johan Fourie talk to Tony Hopkins, Em
Where did the rain begin to beat us? with co-hosts Johan and Jonathan
There’s an Igbo saying, quoted by Chinua Achebe, that goes like this: ‘A man who does not know where the rain began to beat him cannot say where he dried his body.’ It’s a fitting way to end Season 1 of the Our Long Walk podcast, a season shaped by the question: what can Africa’s history teach us about its present, and its possible futures?In the final episode of this season, hosts Johan Fourie an
What did Mandela leave behind? with historian Jacob Dlamini
What if history is not only what we are told, but also what we choose to remember? What if the stories of apartheid are not just tales of villainy and victimhood, but of complexity, contradiction and human agency? And what if loving a country – its landscapes, its memories – requires that we also confront its darkest truths?In this final interview of the first season of Our Long Walk, Jonathan Sch
Can war be creative? with historian Richard Reid
How should we understand the era before Africa’s colonisation? Was it a period of stagnation or one of profound innovation and change? Why has the ‘Scramble for Africa’ dominated historical narratives, often overshadowing Africa’s own dynamic histories? Can warfare be understood not only as destructive but also as a creative and even culturally significant force?In this episode of the Our Long Wal
What if borders were never meant to last? with economist Elias Papaioannou
What determines opportunity in Africa? Does religion shape upward mobility? How do artificial borders, landmines, and weak states constrain economic development? And why has Africa largely resisted the global rise of populism?In this episode of the Our Long Walk podcast, Jonathan Schoots and Johan Fourie sit down with Elias Papaioannou, academic director of the Wheeler Institute for Business and D
Why did we stop roaming? with economist Ola Olsson
How far back should economic history go? Most textbooks start with agriculture, trade, and the emergence of states. But what if we looked further – beyond written records, beyond cities, beyond even the first farms? What if the deepest economic lessons come not from the past few thousand years, but from the hundreds of thousands before them? For most of history, when things got bad, people ran. Bu
Can herding shape morals? with economist Nathan Nunn
What shapes the decisions we make each day, from the seemingly trivial to the transformative? Why do trust, honour or zero-sum thinking persist in some societies but not others? How does a legacy of past events influence not just institutions but the very beliefs we carry and pass on? These questions form the heart of cultural economics, a field that reminds us why culture – often dismissed as too
How to build an African city? with sociologist Benjamin Bradlow
What makes a city thrive in the Global South? Why do some cities build stronger connections between their citizens, social movements, and governments while others remain fragmented? Can the lessons from São Paulo help
South Africa’s struggling urban centres? And what can a sociologist teach us about the future of African cities as urbanization accelerates?
In this episode of Our Long Walk, Johan F
What is Africa's ideal development model? with Ewout Frankema
What does it mean for African economies to be dynamic? How did the Mineral Revolution reshape the continent's economic trajectories? Can Africa’s internal markets be the
foundation for future prosperity? And, crucially, why should Africa chart its own development path, distinct from Asia’s?
In this episode of the Our Long Walk podcast, Johan Fourie and Jonathan Schoots discuss these and many more
Why should Washington care about Africa? with Belinda Archibong
What does it mean to say institutions are ‘inclusive’? What impact does coercive labour have on trust in society? Can technology disrupt entrenched gender inequalities in the workplace? And, crucially, why should policymakers in Washington care about Africa?
In this episode of the Our Long Walk podcast, Jonathan Schoots and Johan Fourie discuss these and many more questions with Belinda Archibong.
What can economists learn from ubuntu? with 2024 Nobel Prizewinner James Robinson
How do historical insights inform modern governance? Can traditional institutions be as effective as modern bureaucracies in driving development? What can Africa’s diverse historical pathways teach us about building effective policies today?
In this episode, Jonathan Schoots and Johan Fourie
sit down with James Robinson, an economist and political scientist from the University of Chicago, to disc
Leadership, legacies, and the politics of change with Ken Opalo
What role do African parliaments play in shaping governance? How do historical legacies affect contemporary political systems, and why does foreign aid often fail to build stronger local institutions? Johan Fourie and Jonathan Schoots discuss these questions - and many more - with Ken Opalo, Associate Professor at Georgetown University and author of the popular blog, An Africanist Perspective.
Se
Are good intentions bad? With historian Bronwen Everill
Why do good intentions by international aid workers often lead to unintended negative outcomes? How should African leaders grapple with the tension between embracing Western ideas without being dominated by them? Hosts Johan Fourie and Jonathan Schoots discuss these – and many more – questions in the first podcast interview with Princeton author and historian Bronwen Everill. Bronwen is the author
Johan and Jonathan Introduce the Podcast
Get to know your hosts, economic historian Johan Fourie and historical sociologist Jonathan Schoots, as they introduce Our Long Walk, a new podcast
exploring the past, present, and future of South Africa and Africa.
This podcast is produced with the help of Voice Note Productions. Our producer is Vasti Calitz with editing done by Andri Burnett. Kelsey Lemon provided helpful research assistance.
Trailer
Welcome to Our Long Walk, a podcast series about
South Africa’s past, present, and future. In this series, economic historian Johan Fourie and historical sociologist Jonathan Schoots interview social science scholars who ask fascinating questions about our country and continent to distil those lessons into practical policy suggestions today.
Subscribe now so you don’t miss the first episode.
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